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	<title>Comments on: More Defense of &quot;Traditional&quot; Families</title>
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	<link>http://www.kipesquire.net/2005/12/more-defense-of-traditional-families/</link>
	<description>A Stitch in Time Saves Nine ... But Haste Makes Waste</description>
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		<title>By: Craig</title>
		<link>http://www.kipesquire.net/2005/12/more-defense-of-traditional-families/comment-page-1/#comment-1612</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Dec 2005 04:16:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kipesquire.net/?p=1946#comment-1612</guid>
		<description>Yes, I know pluralities are still binding, but one must consider all opinions that form the plurality to determine the affect. Bakke was a classic example of a 4-1-4 where both the 4-person opinions are of little importance except to the extent that middle opinion agreed with them. Stevens&#039; concurrence is a limiting factor on the main opinion. That was my point with that respect. Stevens opinion indicates that even close familial household the main opinion would protect could constitute a nuisance to the &quot;public health, safety, morals, or general welfare&quot; of the community and be banned by ordinance. &lt;br /&gt;
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I disagree that the Manassas fact pattern mirrors Moore identically. The downstairs rentor and his girlfriend are not related and, insofar as the Manassas ordinance is concerned, neither is the nephew. &lt;i&gt;Moore&lt;/i&gt; would control, IMO, with respect to the nephew, but not the rentor or his girlfriend. There &lt;i&gt;Belle Terre&lt;/i&gt; would control given the distinction between the two controlling cases. &lt;i&gt;Moore&lt;/i&gt; invalidates part B of the ordinance and perhaps extends part D beyond just dependent children to include a nephew, but the Chavez household still doesn&#039;t qualify under parts A, C or an extended D. &lt;br /&gt;
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I disagree with this law as I believe family relations, even if they are not formalized by marriage, blood, adoption, etc, are among the most important of rights protected by the rights of association and privacy. Brennan&#039;s reasoning of such in Part II-A of his opinion in &lt;i&gt;Roberts v US Jaycees&lt;/i&gt; is probably one of the best statements of this:&lt;blockquote&gt;Family relationships, by their nature, involve deep attachments and commitments to the necessarily few other individuals with whom one shares not only a special community of thoughts, experiences, and beliefs but also distinctively personal aspects of one&#039;s life. Among other things, therefore, they are distinguished by such attributes as relative smallness, a high degree of selectivity in decisions to begin and maintain the affiliation, and seclusion from others in critical aspects of the relationship. &lt;/blockquote&gt;That said, if I&#039;m a lower court judge, I&#039;m bound to apply both &lt;i&gt;Moore&lt;/i&gt; and &lt;i&gt;Belle Terre&lt;/i&gt; leaving the Chavez&#039;s still afoul of the law. As a lawmaker I&#039;d definitely be voting against the law or for its repeal and as an appellate judge to strike down the law as unconstitutional (though a higher court could certainly reverse if they uphold the extent of the current precedents).
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I know pluralities are still binding, but one must consider all opinions that form the plurality to determine the affect. Bakke was a classic example of a 4-1-4 where both the 4-person opinions are of little importance except to the extent that middle opinion agreed with them. Stevens' concurrence is a limiting factor on the main opinion. That was my point with that respect. Stevens opinion indicates that even close familial household the main opinion would protect could constitute a nuisance to the "public health, safety, morals, or general welfare" of the community and be banned by ordinance. </p>
<p>I disagree that the Manassas fact pattern mirrors Moore identically. The downstairs rentor and his girlfriend are not related and, insofar as the Manassas ordinance is concerned, neither is the nephew. <i>Moore</i> would control, IMO, with respect to the nephew, but not the rentor or his girlfriend. There <i>Belle Terre</i> would control given the distinction between the two controlling cases. <i>Moore</i> invalidates part B of the ordinance and perhaps extends part D beyond just dependent children to include a nephew, but the Chavez household still doesn't qualify under parts A, C or an extended D. </p>
<p>I disagree with this law as I believe family relations, even if they are not formalized by marriage, blood, adoption, etc, are among the most important of rights protected by the rights of association and privacy. Brennan's reasoning of such in Part II-A of his opinion in <i>Roberts v US Jaycees</i> is probably one of the best statements of this:<br />
<blockquote>Family relationships, by their nature, involve deep attachments and commitments to the necessarily few other individuals with whom one shares not only a special community of thoughts, experiences, and beliefs but also distinctively personal aspects of one's life. Among other things, therefore, they are distinguished by such attributes as relative smallness, a high degree of selectivity in decisions to begin and maintain the affiliation, and seclusion from others in critical aspects of the relationship. </p></blockquote>
<p>That said, if I'm a lower court judge, I'm bound to apply both <i>Moore</i> and <i>Belle Terre</i> leaving the Chavez's still afoul of the law. As a lawmaker I'd definitely be voting against the law or for its repeal and as an appellate judge to strike down the law as unconstitutional (though a higher court could certainly reverse if they uphold the extent of the current precedents).</p>
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		<title>By: KipEsquire</title>
		<link>http://www.kipesquire.net/2005/12/more-defense-of-traditional-families/comment-page-1/#comment-1611</link>
		<dc:creator>KipEsquire</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Dec 2005 00:14:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kipesquire.net/?p=1946#comment-1611</guid>
		<description>Craig, WADR your comment makes no sense. Plurality opinions are still binding precedent, &lt;i&gt;Moore&lt;/i&gt; expressly distinguished &lt;i&gt;Boraas&lt;/i&gt;, and the Manassas fact pattern mirrors &lt;i&gt;Moore&lt;/i&gt; almost identically; &lt;i&gt;Boraas&lt;/i&gt;, which concerned totally unrelated individuals, is simply not on point here.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Craig, WADR your comment makes no sense. Plurality opinions are still binding precedent, <i>Moore</i> expressly distinguished <i>Boraas</i>, and the Manassas fact pattern mirrors <i>Moore</i> almost identically; <i>Boraas</i>, which concerned totally unrelated individuals, is simply not on point here.</p>
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		<title>By: Craig</title>
		<link>http://www.kipesquire.net/2005/12/more-defense-of-traditional-families/comment-page-1/#comment-1610</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Dec 2005 21:12:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kipesquire.net/?p=1946#comment-1610</guid>
		<description>Not to rain on your parade too much because I too vehemently disagree with this proposed ordinance, but Manassas may be able to sustain the proposed ordinance on the basis of &lt;a href=&quot;http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&amp;vol=416&amp;invol=1&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;Belle Terre v Boraas&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/a&gt;, 416 U.S. 1 (1974), which had a similiar fact pattern to the situation the article above describes. The Court there sustained the law limiting a dwelling to one family, which was defined to  be &quot;[o]ne or more persons related by blood, adoption, or marriage, living and cooking together as a single housekeeping unit, exclusive of household servants. A number of persons but not exceeding two (2) living and cooking together as a single housekeeping unit though not related by blood, adoption, or marriage shall be deemed to constitute a family.&quot; Marshall dissented from the Court&#039;s 7-member majority based on the rights to association and privacy. A particularly good quote from Marshall:&lt;blockquote&gt;The instant ordinance discriminates on the basis of just such a personal lifestyle choice as to household companions. It permits any number of persons related by blood or marriage, be it two or twenty, to live in a single household, but it limits to two the number of unrelated persons bound by profession, love, friendship, religious or political affiliation, or mere economics who can occupy a single home. Belle Terre imposes upon those who deviate from the community norm in their choice of living companions significantly greater restrictions than are applied to residential groups who are related by blood or marriage, and compose the established order within the community. The village has, in effect, acted to fence out those individuals whose choice of lifestyle differs from that of its current residents.&lt;/blockquote&gt;Brennan also dissented on procedural grounds as in his view the case no longer met the constitutional threshold of being an actual controversy as the six students in the case were no longer leasing the house. &lt;i&gt;Moore&lt;/i&gt; also was plurality court. It is probably better viewed like a case like &lt;i&gt;Board of Regents v Bakke&lt;/i&gt; since there was a 4-(2)-1-4 split with Brennan&#039;s two vote concurrence and Stevens&#039; concurrence serving as the middle. Stevens&#039; view was that the ordinance constituted a taking since the ordinance did not have a &quot;substantial relation to the public health, safety, morals, or general welfare.&quot; &lt;BR /&gt;&lt;BR /&gt;In this Manassas instance, Stevens&#039; comment that &quot;Th[e] basic [&#039;owner&#039;s right to decide how best to use his own property&#039;] has always been limited by the law of nuisance which proscribes uses that impair the enjoyment of other property in the vicinity&quot; may limit &lt;i&gt;Moore&lt;/i&gt;&#039;s reach to allow this stupid law.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not to rain on your parade too much because I too vehemently disagree with this proposed ordinance, but Manassas may be able to sustain the proposed ordinance on the basis of <a href="http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&#038;vol=416&#038;invol=1" rel="nofollow"><i>Belle Terre v Boraas</i></a>, 416 U.S. 1 (1974), which had a similiar fact pattern to the situation the article above describes. The Court there sustained the law limiting a dwelling to one family, which was defined to  be "[o]ne or more persons related by blood, adoption, or marriage, living and cooking together as a single housekeeping unit, exclusive of household servants. A number of persons but not exceeding two (2) living and cooking together as a single housekeeping unit though not related by blood, adoption, or marriage shall be deemed to constitute a family." Marshall dissented from the Court's 7-member majority based on the rights to association and privacy. A particularly good quote from Marshall:<br />
<blockquote>The instant ordinance discriminates on the basis of just such a personal lifestyle choice as to household companions. It permits any number of persons related by blood or marriage, be it two or twenty, to live in a single household, but it limits to two the number of unrelated persons bound by profession, love, friendship, religious or political affiliation, or mere economics who can occupy a single home. Belle Terre imposes upon those who deviate from the community norm in their choice of living companions significantly greater restrictions than are applied to residential groups who are related by blood or marriage, and compose the established order within the community. The village has, in effect, acted to fence out those individuals whose choice of lifestyle differs from that of its current residents.</p></blockquote>
<p>Brennan also dissented on procedural grounds as in his view the case no longer met the constitutional threshold of being an actual controversy as the six students in the case were no longer leasing the house. <i>Moore</i> also was plurality court. It is probably better viewed like a case like <i>Board of Regents v Bakke</i> since there was a 4-(2)-1-4 split with Brennan's two vote concurrence and Stevens' concurrence serving as the middle. Stevens' view was that the ordinance constituted a taking since the ordinance did not have a "substantial relation to the public health, safety, morals, or general welfare." </p>
<p>In this Manassas instance, Stevens' comment that "Th[e] basic ['owner's right to decide how best to use his own property'] has always been limited by the law of nuisance which proscribes uses that impair the enjoyment of other property in the vicinity" may limit <i>Moore</i>'s reach to allow this stupid law.</p>
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		<title>By: dolphin</title>
		<link>http://www.kipesquire.net/2005/12/more-defense-of-traditional-families/comment-page-1/#comment-1609</link>
		<dc:creator>dolphin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Dec 2005 17:35:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kipesquire.net/?p=1946#comment-1609</guid>
		<description>One of the apartment complexs (I think it was the apartment policy versus the cities, but I&#039;m not sure) I looked at around here had a policy that required one bedroom per non-related male and female (ie a non-married straight couple couldn&#039;t move into a one bedroom apartment).  It was one of the few policies of this sort that actually (though unintentially) favored gay people.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the apartment complexs (I think it was the apartment policy versus the cities, but I'm not sure) I looked at around here had a policy that required one bedroom per non-related male and female (ie a non-married straight couple couldn't move into a one bedroom apartment).  It was one of the few policies of this sort that actually (though unintentially) favored gay people.</p>
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		<title>By: doinkicarus</title>
		<link>http://www.kipesquire.net/2005/12/more-defense-of-traditional-families/comment-page-1/#comment-1608</link>
		<dc:creator>doinkicarus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Dec 2005 16:07:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kipesquire.net/?p=1946#comment-1608</guid>
		<description>Where I went to college, certain parts of the city were &quot;zoned&quot; so as to prohibit more than two un-related individuals from living together.  The incentive was to prevent people like me (and my two roommates) from living in the &quot;non-college&quot; side of town.&lt;BR /&gt;&lt;BR /&gt;But they had no way of enforcing it, and it never became  problem for us.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Where I went to college, certain parts of the city were "zoned" so as to prohibit more than two un-related individuals from living together.  The incentive was to prevent people like me (and my two roommates) from living in the "non-college" side of town.</p>
<p>But they had no way of enforcing it, and it never became  problem for us.</p>
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		<title>By: Power2thePeople</title>
		<link>http://www.kipesquire.net/2005/12/more-defense-of-traditional-families/comment-page-1/#comment-1607</link>
		<dc:creator>Power2thePeople</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Dec 2005 14:49:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kipesquire.net/?p=1946#comment-1607</guid>
		<description>So let me see if I understand the definition of &#039;family&#039; - one individual = family; two individuals maybe = family; three individuals probably doesn&#039;t = family.  Hmmm....&lt;BR /&gt;&lt;BR /&gt;If this goes successfully unchecked, what&#039;s to stop some other city (mine) from redefining family so that two adults who are not blood relatives cannot live together (stare decisis be damned)?  While I suppose that landlords and maybe some real estate professionals might oppose this, taken a few steps further, it&#039;s an easy way to go after same gender couples (not just immigrants), no?  &lt;BR /&gt;&lt;BR /&gt;And what&#039;s with the definition of &quot;living *and* cooking together?&quot;  What if we eat out every night?  Do we then not qualify under the rule?  Growing up, my family (mom, dad, etc.) and I ate out every night, including Thanksgiving and Christmas - we wouldn&#039;t be &quot;family&quot; because of that?  What if it&#039;s only sticking pre-made items in the microwave?  Is that cooking?  Making coffee?  Opening up the cat food?  Unreal.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So let me see if I understand the definition of 'family' &#8211; one individual = family; two individuals maybe = family; three individuals probably doesn't = family.  Hmmm&#8230;.</p>
<p>If this goes successfully unchecked, what's to stop some other city (mine) from redefining family so that two adults who are not blood relatives cannot live together (stare decisis be damned)?  While I suppose that landlords and maybe some real estate professionals might oppose this, taken a few steps further, it's an easy way to go after same gender couples (not just immigrants), no?  </p>
<p>And what's with the definition of "living *and* cooking together?"  What if we eat out every night?  Do we then not qualify under the rule?  Growing up, my family (mom, dad, etc.) and I ate out every night, including Thanksgiving and Christmas &#8211; we wouldn't be "family" because of that?  What if it's only sticking pre-made items in the microwave?  Is that cooking?  Making coffee?  Opening up the cat food?  Unreal.</p>
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